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View Full Version : Isomerization for hash? Brainstorming thread.



CanadianCronic
08-08-2009, 05:23 AM
The precursor to THC is CBD. It is one step away from being THC, but does not get you stoned. The THC is eventually converted to CBN's, which are only one fifth as potent.
The trichomes still tight to the leaf are predominantly CBD's. They elevate on stalks as they become THC, and then turn cloudy yellow as they degrade into CBN's.

Both premature pot and outdoor leaf tend to have a high CBD content, and are worth rearranging the molecular isomers, or "isomerization".

I have a process for oil, but have never even heard of it being done with hash. It is worth thinking about. I won't post the whole process for oil here, but for the sake of a starting point, it involves 1 drop five normal hydrochloric acid per half dram, boiled for 45 minutes. The acid is then neutralized to stop the reaction. Done for too long, and it converts the THC into CBN.

Can we work up a way to do this with hash?

A lower temperature means less reactivity, hence much more acid will be needed. I know sulfuric acid is used sometimes, but hydrochloric was the acid of choice because it is cleaner. This says to me it is likely possible with many different acids.
It might be as simple as soaking the hash in lemon juice or vinegar for a stretch of time, and then rinsing it with water again.

Thoughts?

bingobango
08-08-2009, 12:12 PM
No mention of solvents in Bubs hideout friend. Agianst the rules, we only discuss water extraction and how to.

CanadianCronic
08-08-2009, 02:00 PM
I understand this, and I made no mention of solvents. I am wondering about artificial ripening of premature trichomes WITHOUT resorting to solvents. I already know how if solvents are involved.

Tokez
08-08-2009, 03:55 PM
isomers, or "isomerization".

I have a process for oil, -. I won't post the whole process for oil here, but for the sake of a starting point, it involves 1 drop five normal hydrochloric acid per half dram, boiled for 45

This says to me it is likely possible with many different acids.


Thoughts?

Welcome to FMB CanadianChronic
glad to see some more canadians hitting this site :)

I think what he meant to say is no oil talk here as well as solvents and a quick fyi

Hydrochloric acid—Organic solvent

CanadianCronic
08-08-2009, 10:59 PM
I am not wanting to step on any toes, so I will drop it, unless a mod says it is O.K. for it to continue. But...

Water is known as the "universal solvent", but it is not being used as one, and it is harmless. Likewise, I am not suggesting dissolving anything in anything, nor am I suggesting using hydrochloric acid. Read my opening post, and you will see I am just speculating on how to improve the potency of hash made from pot cropped too early.

Sorry to be defensive, and I know I am new here.

Hieronymus Bosch
08-10-2009, 02:09 AM
He is right, what he is describing doesn't constitute solvency, merely expediting a natural process. Before we pounce on him, perhaps it would be wise to ask some questions to get a good grip on what he/she is suggesting?

Here are a few from me:

1: Would this process produce an oil?

2: What, if any, byproduct is left behind from the hydrochloric acid?

3: Is there another process to do this that doesn't involve any acids?

4: can this be applied to trichomes extracted with bubble bags?

jBUCKS420
08-10-2009, 12:39 PM
Im interested in seeing more about this topic.

CanadianCronic
08-10-2009, 12:52 PM
1. No more than melted hash could be considered oil. I don't have a process yet to achieve this effect with hash, but I would like to formulate one. Figuring one out is the point of the thread.

2. I don't know. I am inclined to shy away from hydrochloric, in favour of an acid that is considered safe, like citric acid (lemon juice), or perhaps acedic acid (vinegar)

3. I don't know. I know light, heat, and contact with oxygen all degrade THC, but when starting with CBD's would they cause THC to form? Again, I don't know.

4. Yes, in theory.

Evergreen
08-10-2009, 03:54 PM
So not to be a dick or anything but why are you interested in this? you could pull the cannabis early and get the trichs at the stage you want them. Very interesting though.
To me Cold water hash is the best high on the planet, it is derived from cannabis plants and cold water and not other things to "pollute" it. I just dont understand why you are interested in the process? are you interested in getting a higher cbd or cbn content.

hope i didnt come as an asshole.

CanadianCronic
08-10-2009, 06:23 PM
It is most common for me to work with outdoor leaf from other peoples crops. Where they would normally just throw it in the garbage, I get them to give me the leaf, and then I split the hash with them. Outdoor leaf from this far north usually has a high CBD content, and at least in theory, potency can be increased by converting CBD's into THC.

Bubbleman
08-10-2009, 07:38 PM
I have read a little about isomerization over the years and even had a friend that was big into it using chemical solvents of course to make his isomerized oil.

I have never heard anything more than the theory from isomerization as well as decarboxylation. ( another method for activating non active cannabinoids.)

HOwever with the THC amounts we are dealing with making bubble. (30 to 70%thc) , activating such a small amount of non actives... just doesnt seem to make any difference.

At the highest levels of purity ie 70% , you are already at a high enough ratio of thc.. and at this point you will want the ever important ( possibly modulators of the high of thc), terpenes and terpenoids.

To me that is something to spend your time looking... there are 130types at any given time in a single cannabis strain.. and any one single terpene can modulate the effects of THC...

To me this is very exciting .....

peace
Bubble man



Ps... welcome to the site... and don't worry about the anti oil heads.... they are just representing with love....

Any new discussion should be welcomed ... to a degree.

Hieronymus Bosch
08-11-2009, 01:32 AM
I have read a little about isomerization over the years and even had a friend that was big into it using chemical solvents of course to make his isomerized oil.

I have never heard anything more than the theory from isomerization as well as decarboxylation. ( another method for activating non active cannabinoids.)

HOwever with the THC amounts we are dealing with making bubble. (30 to 70%thc) , activating such a small amount of non actives... just doesnt seem to make any difference.

At the highest levels of purity ie 70% , you are already at a high enough ratio of thc.. and at this point you will want the ever important ( possibly modulators of the high of thc), terpenes and terpenoids.

To me that is something to spend your time looking... there are 130types at any given time in a single cannabis strain.. and any one single terpene can modulate the effects of THC...

To me this is very exciting .....

peace
Bubble man



Ps... welcome to the site... and don't worry about the anti oil heads.... they are just representing with love....

Any new discussion should be welcomed ... to a degree.


I concur, I would be stoked for any experiments that you carry out.

But I have a few more questions?

To carry out such experiments, you would need some expensive equipment to analyze the cannabinoids and terpenes though? Like a gas chromatography mass spectrometer? Do you have access to this sort of equipment? If not, is there any other way to detect cannabinoid levels?

CanadianCronic
08-11-2009, 03:09 AM
Thin layer cromatography.

http://www.alphanova.nl/

Hieronymus Bosch
08-11-2009, 09:24 AM
Thin layer cromatography.

http://www.alphanova.nl/


That may be one of the coolest things I've seen in quite a while. I may just have to do some experimenting myself.

jcreamy420
08-11-2009, 10:04 AM
quoting Bubbleman:
HOwever with the THC amounts we are dealing with making bubble. (30 to 70%thc) , activating such a small amount of non actives... just doesnt seem to make any difference.

that's exactly what I was thinking, but I read a seperate post in which he said that he was usually dealing with outdoor leafy crops which likely contain much less THC than 30-70%...with all that considered i still suggest staying away from hydrochloric acid and weed it sort of "melts" the tradition of natural buds if you'll excuse my pun :)