Please read this!!!! [Archive] - Bubbleman's Hideout

WAK

09-14-2009, 11:59 PM

Hello glass lovers and friends. This is JP from TORO. It has taken a lot of deliberation for me to put this out there, but I finally decided to. Please bear with me through this, though, for it is not easy for me, but comes from my heart.

The reason for me writing to you today, is because a former friend and shopmate who goes by the name of Joe, Joey, Slutty Glass stabbed me in the back.

We were super tight. I let him into my home and my heart. I and my family were super good to him. In short, we considered him to be a part of our family.

Last August, Joey, Hops, and I went on a "family" vacation together. Joey never returned to the shop after it, due to a "personal" crisis. My wife and I called him repeatedly since then to see how he was doing with his situation, but never got a response back.

I taught him everything he knows about lathe working and much more with glass, along with all of my trade techniques. To make a long story short, the one thing that Joey did NOT learn from me were his ethics and morals. He is young, and will have to learn that on his own.

It was brought to my attention that he has started a tube company called Itza. The designs and work are duplicates of Everything he saw and learned in our shop. When I saw them, my mouth hit the floor and my heart was utterly stabbed.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of companies and people out there inspired by my work that I hear of. I won't lie, sometimes it hurts me. I mean come on, I'm an artist with an ego and I put my soul into my creations, but over time I have come to accept that "imitation is the greatest form of flattery." Quite frankly, some of them are doing even a better job than this guy who apprenticed right under me!

I am not threatened by Itza. What I am is hurt, disappointed, and shocked. Joey was fully aware of how I felt about anybody I let into my shop, leaving with trade secrets. He left right before he was supposed to sign a non-compete contract, but in the meantime, we had a "Gentleman's Contract" which he swore up and down to always live by.

After Joey left my shop, handmade specialized tools(that took me a lot of thought to come up with) and my sketch book were missing which have allowed him to duplicate my work--that is..trees, fixed diffusers, etc.

Last week, I made every effort to contact Joey, even threatened to take legal action with our patent(which is currently pending) and for theft. However, I have decided that this forum and one other is the better route to take since I find him to be highly melicious and untrustworthy. There is a LOT more to this, but have been advised not to lay it all out there at this moment. But I will say this, at first he had me fooled, but now I have no problem saying that in my opinion, and many others in this community can back me on this, that he is a con-artist and a GOOD one.

I know that this happens in this business and others all the time. But contrary to popular opinion, we are not some "big" company. Every worked piece is put together by me. I spend 16 hours/7 days a week, working hard to make people happy. The truth is, I will never be able to fill all of my orders. That is a fact.

I get it that it is not fair for us to try to bully the industry with my patent. There is plenty to go around. The only reason for having one is to protect myself from someone else patenting my design and trying to use it against me. This has happened in other cases in this industry, and I was advised that it is best to not repeat other's mistakes.

The bottom line is, decide for yourself if you feel the need to support a character like Joey through Itza. As far as I'm concerned:

ITZA FAKE

I just will not be able to sleep if I do not get this off my chest.
Thanks for listening and for all of your support.

peace,
JP

dontstepongrass

09-15-2009, 12:37 AM

sad to see...

itza, consider this a cancellation of my order...

Back Stabbath

09-15-2009, 02:40 AM

i just want everyone to know that as far as im concerned ODM(originaldutchmaster) has NOTHING to do with this and should be treated as such.

this thread is open for now...if people cant behave themselves then i will shut it back down...

toro is part of the fmg/fmb family and will stay that way. if people have a problem with that there is other places to go...

collieman

09-15-2009, 05:21 AM

Just wanted to show my support. sometimes it costs a little, sometimes it costs a lot to learn what a person is really made of... learn from it and let it go, you'll have a much lighter journey that way.
also... your technique is magnificent. i first saw toro on utube by accident. Im old skool so posting b.t. on the net isn't my forte but it caught my eye (the old 4 foot Graffics was cool in my college daze) Anyways, nice work. Id always go with the originator, he know why, not just how...

p.s. Can i get the hook up? haven't had a sick piece in a while, and while i mostly vape, i often long for the super milky rip that make you levitate. discount for medical status?

NYCtoker420

09-15-2009, 05:34 AM

wow im sorry to hear that JP coming from your here in NY and enough sad i been noticing this for ahwile but had no clue itza joe was considerablly in your shop learnign from you himself is a very trudt worthy thing to do and in the long runned horriable to see this happen to such a well known great glass company that will allways be on top TORO FTR itza just for peeple that cant afford the beauty of a real toro best of luck to u JP and i would love to see some new styles of fixed stems or circ fixed stems in the future best of luck to u my friend

NYCtoker

m5kid

09-15-2009, 05:37 AM

looks like he ripped of sg 2 with his new double bubbler, but not as bad as u. sorry this happened to such a stand up company

Dread_head_420

09-15-2009, 05:58 AM

looks like he ripped of sg 2 with his new double bubbler, but not as bad as u. sorry this happened to such a stand up company

pretty sure those where custom orders,
something TORO has done as well

looks like j.p ripped off Sg ?

ToRo Head

09-15-2009, 06:19 AM

Wow its sad that some people are that way.

all i know is if u take somebody in and treat them like family then go and then do something like that is just really F$$$$$ up!

when all is said and done it took alot for jp to post this im sure off. and well jp you got my support! and thankyou for being hear for the communtiy and letting us know the TRUTH! That says alot about you as a perons.

and it alll makes so much more sense now. cause the first itza i saw, i said is that a toro!

all i got to say is how can u do that to family.

Glassaholic

09-15-2009, 06:47 AM

Any artist out there who opens his eyes to others work is influenced by it whether or not he admits it.
As for Itza being similar to Toro I don't see a problem with someone using the skills and technique they were taught.

Stealing custom tools and design books however isn't acceptable behaviour , and not being open and honest about what you're doing especially to close friends is morally wrong if not legally and I highly doubt any of Itza's glass will every find a home in my collection after reading this.

BigManNew

09-15-2009, 07:13 AM

EEbrew

09-15-2009, 07:17 AM

Fuck, every other glass blower out there ripped off hops's Design and you don't see him bitching on multiple forums.

also Toro ripped off illa's circulator, and sg's grid line for their 6 in1

Hieronymus Bosch

09-15-2009, 07:21 AM

That's a good way to wind up in a casket where I'm from.

Hieronymus Bosch

09-15-2009, 07:23 AM

EEbrew

09-15-2009, 07:47 AM

Yeah but you don't know the whole story, neither do I for that matter.

ToRo Head

09-15-2009, 08:40 AM

Fuck, every other glass blower out there ripped off hops's Design and you don't see him bitching on multiple forums.

also Toro ripped off illa's circulator, and sg's grid line for their 6 in1

I dont think its about the desings i think its more so about the way it happen! im sure it would be alot different if the guy sat down with jp and told him he wants to branch out on his own. but not the way he did by takeing his own personal book and tools!

DCALLSTARR

09-15-2009, 11:57 AM

somebody yell at JP TORO for stealing ILLADELPHS design book then!

i know im probably going to incite a riot but come on, WHO MADE THE CIRCULATOR FIRST? toro or illadelph? ask yourself that question and then come up with who is moral and who is immoral.

he who is WITHOUT sin may cast the first stone. but he who has already committed acts of taking other peoples designs shalt not be hypocritical of the same occurring to them..

Oh yeah and ITZA FTMFW! they sell the same products at half toro's prices or better!

originaldutchmaster

09-15-2009, 12:29 PM

if a discussion is allowed here, i dont understand why my thread was deleted...

WAK

09-15-2009, 12:34 PM

We have gone out of our way to give props when props are due--

as for the circulator, JP does not go on the internet much--when he does, it's to look at his own work--when JP made his first circulator, when he showed me, I said to him, that's awesome, but I feel like I saw that somewhere before-I went and searched the internet and went so far as to call Madcity to ask him if he'd seen it and who did it--he can vouche for me on this--I did find illys thread eventually, but in the end consciously chose not to say anything since JP had absolutely no influence from illadelph when he made it since he had no idea that illadelph had done them, but was more thinking of PHx's dome perc with a tweak--

sometimes there are flukes where artists are thinking of the same thing at the same time-

--Luca and Illadelph get nothing but respect from us--we got the priviledge of meeting him in Vegas at a private dinner, turns out that he and JP went to the same high school, along with Snic--JP was just a little older--Illadelph is one of the few companies out there that has publically given props to JP, something we never forget! Just last week, I was contacted by them about where we got something that they liked which we use on our tubes, and without hesitation, I gave this information freely--

there are so many that think they "Know" what's up, but it is all just assumption--

Do you all really know how other artists feel when their work is being copied everywhere?
I talk to and am friends with many great artists out there, everyone has there own way of dealing with it--some go into major depressions over this stuff--their wives/girlfiends and I often talk about how we need a support group to handle our men when they get ripped off--just yesterday, I heard one artist's response to "imitation is the greatest form of flattery", by responding,"well then I'm getting the shit flattered out of me everywhere I look!"

did you all know that before we started to produce trees and even put our own tweek on them that I contacted Mike from Dememtia to ask his permission? His reply was, go for it because they too check out JP's work for inspiration and have nothing but respect--

I have open relationships with a lot of my competition--even started talking to Richard himself--that is how true and honest business people can do it and hopefully the riff raff will learn from us strong leaders and now old schoolers that this is really how it should be done--

I also invite Itza Joe to give his side of the story--obviously there are two sides to every story, this is just my truth though--I know that a few days ago, before all of this, the bubbleman himself asked what his story was, but even 4 days later there was no response--

Much respect,
Wendy

slippeh

09-15-2009, 12:42 PM

If TORO is part of the fm(b/g) family what does that mean.. no more Itza in the glass market?

cheesebox

09-15-2009, 01:09 PM

May I ask what kind of proof is their that they stole your tools, and design books? have you asked him? I find it really hard to believe claims of actual theft. Designs get flinched all the time (it sucks but its a matter of life) but tools are something you should speak to the authority's about if true, if he has your proprietary tools in his possession then you need to stand up for yourself. Also bubble, I would REALLY like to hear the other side of the story, so letting ODM speak would let this get alot clearer. A one sided story this thread currently is. Also I do agree that even if hes ripping your design off, as long as he didn't steal anything itza is GOOD for the community, because he is letting people join the "Exclusive" club you guys have made with super hard to get pieces and crazy work letting alot more people get sick glass, and frankly selling it for a good deal less. Wak I have nothing but the utmost respect for toro, ive dreamed of owning your pieces, but thats the closest ive gotten, dreamed I have a Beautiful itza bubbler in my house because I walked into my local glass shop, and he had it in-stock for a reasonable price the welds were AWESOME, the tree AWESOME, the foot was thick, the mouthpiece was just right if anything let JP know this hes an amazing teacher, im sorry this happened to him and hurt him, but I appreciate itza glass for what it is, a lower cost alternative to badass glass with badass quality.

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 01:13 PM

jwatts

09-15-2009, 01:31 PM

jp good to hear ur making the tubes, i heard a rummor that u haven't been making the "prodo" line for toro. just trees and the toro colabs but now that u said u make every toro bong i gots mad respect. oh st joseph's stand up!

imx

09-15-2009, 01:31 PM

Go jp/toro!! Fuck itza and people/companies who steal!!!!!!!!!

Itza piece of shit!!

O and to the poster above me ^. I dont care how good of quality and how cheap the pieces are, anybody with morals wouldnt buy one. Youre supporting a thief. I for one see thieves as pieces of shit who deserve NO respect(alert).

next Itza I see, Im smashing. Theyre as good as china glass.

im not taking any sides but dude... that whole post of yours is fail.. lol there far from china glass. why dont you people wait and hear the whole story before you guys throw out all these big words.. and most of these kids on here claming fuck itza or toro probably have never/will never even buy a high end tube like a toro/itza so i dono why you're even talking in here? why dont you guys act like adults and let them sort it out between THEM. and as for all these idea stealings.. im sure this is brought up before but what about hop's inline? or the circulator (illadelph) and theres many other companies with tree percs? huh? what!?!? business is business guys, sometimes people get hurt, let the two dudes sort it out before making retarded claims like this person did.

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 01:31 PM

cheesebox

09-15-2009, 01:37 PM

Dude, have you even read this thread? its one sided at this point, your jumping on the bandwagon without knowing the whole story. I suggest calming down and letting everything come to light before you go "raging" and destroying all the itza china glass, O'yeah I bought my bubbler like 2 months ago... I was totally supporting "frauds" no I saw some NICE glass, at a affordable price and I snagged it, get over your high and mighty bullshit. I love toro, and support JP and all the awesome he does BUT I wont go demonizing a company on the words of another, ive lived in the real world long enough to realize that hearsay is WORTHLESS.

imx

09-15-2009, 01:40 PM

O and I see headyglass is about to put Itza up online for sale.

I just emailed them and told them what I thought about that and I encourage everyone to do the same. Supporting the theives is not any better than being one yourself. And if you support the ones who support the theives, youre not much better.
I will no longer support headyglass either until they take down the Itza.

O and ^ theyre as good as china glass because like china glass, they are deceiving bastards. I dont like deceitfulness, its the cousin of stealing. And like I said, I despise those who steal, and I love the glass game(I dont have a high end tube? ahahaha is that why I got the rarest production RooR ever posted up in the glass market for sale ?)

Taking others ideas is fine with me, stealing others tools and notebook after they were treating you like family is not cool and not right.

JP told us the situation so that we would know, we all have the right to say fuck Itza!!

like i said, business is business, these things happen all the time. if you ask me toro fell off lately. SG BITCH. its sad how many of you people have jumped on the toro bandwagon right now.. and most of you probably dont even own a toro. SG > Toro and this is coming form someone who used to love toro.. this whole complaining thing isnt a good look for toro imo. and the true glass heads will feel the same way. you clowns dont say fuck jp for stealing the circ from illadelph? lame. but like i said.. SG BITCH.

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 01:41 PM

You ordered your Itza before you knew that the owner was a theif? Fine, thats completely and utterly fine with me and probably fine with JP. Now that you now the story(Itza stole JP's tools and notebook and then vanished) you should do the right thing and stop supporting Itza and tell everyone else to stop supporting them.

JP/Toro/wak has never lied to the community, they are highly, highly repsected members of the glass community. They have no reason to lie. Itza is new, not a single person from there has made any sort of announcement. Why should we speculate if JP is telling the truth?
Would you believe your brother or the guy on the corner looking for 25 cents?

O and ^ the true glass heads are on TC, why dont you go check out the thread for Itza :) Not a SINGLE person has stood up for Itza or what theyve done, all the glassheads have been behind Toro and JP.
You can think SG is the best, nobody is gonna try to stop you. Nobodys saying only support Toro, were simply saying dont support THIEVES like ITZA. We would all be fine if everybody only bought SG from here on out, just as long as your not supporting the thieves at Itza.

And really? These things happen all the time? Please show me where else somebodys tools and notebook were stolen so that somebody else could get their tube line off the ground ?

cheesebox

09-15-2009, 01:46 PM

Anyone ever notice how TC doesnt allow you to say FMB or Fullmeltbubble? thats the same kinda shit, we all know bubbleman is a boss, but everyone on TC had a consortium of negativeness and decided fuck bubbleman :( please dont ostracize a good standing member of the community so quickly without hearing from them. Shit I may change my tune later, but for now I would rather this gets mediated and we end up with 2 banging tube company's instead of 1. Who are you to be the authority on truth, I for one like to see evidence.

Evergreen

09-15-2009, 01:46 PM

I think that this thread will be shut down if peeps keep pushing their hatred on others and starting a fight on this thread.

>JP, That really sucks to hear that something like this happened to you, It would be great to hear Joeys side of the story, though it seems like you have laid out a pretty good argument.
If that has really happened to you that really sucks. I am a glassblower myself and I would never even think of stealing ideas from the person who taught me, that is wrong in so many ways.

Hopefully this can get figured out soon, because there are a lot of people who would lke to know about this.

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 01:47 PM

Correct me if Im wrong Bubbleman, but your behind JP on this too ? After all, the Itza thread has been deleted.

Like others said, no place with morals will carry Itza.

mr.roorstein_rw

09-15-2009, 01:49 PM

i feel like im reading a fuckn novel in these threads lol all yall need to quit your bitchn and get a life

DaNK

09-15-2009, 01:55 PM

I know there is most likely more too this story than any of us will ever know. I say we wait and see what happens. Just my .02!

jwatts

09-15-2009, 02:04 PM

i love how this is shocking to some ppl as soon as u saw an itza tube u hadda know he either stole toro's idea or worked with them, i mean JP invented "fixed stems" JP mad props for ice pinch slides too bro. best invention/innovation i have seen in the glass communtiy i thought about that for years.
oh jp i got got some designs myself i would love to tell u one day.

m5kid

09-15-2009, 02:05 PM

i wonder y we haven't heard from joe yet???

ROOR24

09-15-2009, 02:20 PM

Joey was fully aware of how I felt about anybody I let into my shop, leaving with trade secrets. He left right before he was supposed to sign a non-compete contract, but in the meantime, we had a "Gentleman's Contract" which he swore up and down to always live by.

After Joey left my shop, handmade specialized tools(that took me a lot of thought to come up with) and my sketch book were missing which have allowed him to duplicate my work--that is..trees, fixed diffusers, etc.

JP

Thats fucked up! What a D-bag.

DCALLSTARR

09-15-2009, 02:57 PM

why cant someone take another persons design, produce it themselves and sell it for cheaper?

AKA the PRINCIPLE of the free market system..

simple economics, maybe Joey didn't believe that JP had glass heads interests in mind when he split off to make ITZA.. by having our interests in mind, i mean providing a technically modern, thick and sturdy tube with customizable options and ALL FOR A VERY AFFORDABLE (not cheap) price.. after all, anyone knows that not every single glass heads, with an expensive medicinal habit, has a grand to spend on some sick glass, with the most modern diffusion and reliability.

the amount of one sidedness and narrow headed thinking here is going out of control. perhaps this, maybe that. does anyone know the whole story? NO..

bottom line is, we live in america and ITZA had the right to split off and start up their own company. who can blame joey from using the same techniques to produce his line of glassware (i.e. production equipment and strategies) that he learned while doing his time in the Toro camp. that equipment is how he learned to make glass, and its obviously how he is going to continue to produce it.

im done. time will sort everything out. hell, remember how pissed everyone was 3 months ago when weedstar stole WOOD and Toro's design for ash catchers?

Bongwater420

09-15-2009, 03:02 PM

oops i tihnk i posted a video on this should of posted it here

mods remove my post plz

ROOR24

09-15-2009, 03:09 PM

I don't know the whole story but imo there appears to be more going on than just someone taking another persons design, producing it themselves and sell it for cheaper.

jwatts

09-15-2009, 03:16 PM

u know this happens alot more than u would believe it amazes me that some glass artist just srt8 up steal/rip off other people designs, and dont give them credit or props. i mean u call urself an ARTIST and u gotta rip off someone esle i mean come up with ur OWN designs (u know what im trying to say)

DCALLSTARR

09-15-2009, 03:16 PM

i said no one knows the whole story.. no one will, there could be flaws and loose ties in both sides stories.

i never knew there was this much drama in the glass community.

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 03:54 PM

I love how DC ignores half the story. He literally STOLE handmade tools produced by JP, along with a sketchbook and "trade secrets", after dipping out of a contract he swore to live by.

What other glass artists have you heard of doing this, "dcalstar" ?

SheepDawg

09-15-2009, 03:55 PM

WOOOW bro!! Thats a super whacked out situation! I am very sorry to hear that JP . I hope justice is served soon. Were on your side bro. Keep bustin out that gnarly work man!

ripps

09-15-2009, 04:05 PM

whether or not people think that it is ethical for a student to turn against a teacher or copy another artist's designs, or begin to compete with the original artist. i think the main issue here is this: JP specifically told Joe that he did not want his trade secrets or designs to leave the shop. As friends and as gentleman, this request should have been honored. Its also my belief that anybody with any morals would have honored this request. Instead personal property was stolen and contact was cut off. Joe started to do exactly what JP asked him not to, instead of being grateful to learn under such a promient teacher, Joe decieved him. That being said, I will not support Itza at any point in the future.

Bubbleman

09-15-2009, 04:16 PM

well first off i would like to say... I am glad that jp and wendy ie TORO.. decided to put out their own letter..and i truly urge joey from itza glass to do the same..
At this point i can't really imagine anyone else answering for him.
Its all assumption.
Toro has told us their side.. and now if joey wants to come online and do the same.. i urge him to.

As for deleted threads... i do not delete threads unles they are absolutely spam.. So if any threads were erased.. bring it up with one of the glass mod's.. As i am certain it was one of them who decided to erase the itza thread.
I prefer to leave threads up.. even once where people are breaking the site rules and talking about oil

LIke someone mention in this thread earlier about TC not allowing the name bubbleman or fullmeltbubble.
I personaly think that type of editing is lame.
I would much prefer to see a community discuss something and come to a conclusion.

I have had this kind of drama in my life.. from starting the bubblebag company... but two things i did differently where. A: made the product higher quality thus more expensive so i wasnt undercutting any current market that existed.
and B: i never hung out with mila in amsterdam for months to years... learning everything she ever did with bags.. and watching her businesss.. only to tu rn around not return her calls.. and start my own company.

I personaly was stoked to see itza glass. and thought it was beautiful... right up till i heard this story..( that combined with the fact that no one in the itza thread wanted to mentioned where this blower was from.. what his history was...
Only to find out two days later.. this story...
it didnt leave me sitting with much confidence...

Botton line... i would urge joey.. to either post here... or to figure out his drama with toro... as our community is much to small for this silly infighting...

My two cents...

I wish we could all get along.....

Bubble man

ps.. It took me almost 5 years.. before the bubblebag drama subsized and let me be... hold your head up high people... it does eventualy go away...

Evergreen

09-15-2009, 04:29 PM

well said Bubbleman, well said.

Back Stabbath

09-15-2009, 04:45 PM

i erased the itza stuff and i will contunue too until this is resolved. im not going to have it shoved in toro's face while this is going on. as i said in my first post. there is other places to go if you have a problem with this. dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

if i was itza id try to change this. so far nothing. and when i mean so far i mean 6 months later type of so far.

Green Supreme

09-15-2009, 04:55 PM

I wonder if Joey knows about this thread? Seems it would be better to his advantage to come give his side. The absence of such seems to give an air of guilt. Hope it all works out well. Peace GS

pigfarmer

09-15-2009, 05:29 PM

Thanks for bringing this to the public. I was in the market for a ITZA b4 I knew of this.

If I currently owned a ITZA it would be taken to the nearest cement lot & given a hail marry in the name of TORO! :pig:

tampa dazed ian

09-15-2009, 05:34 PM

^ lets start the world wide smashing of Itza glass in the name of JP

EEbrew

09-15-2009, 05:43 PM

i erased the itza stuff and i will contunue too until this is resolved. im not going to have it shoved in toro's face while this is going on.
You say toro is part of the FMB family, though they never posted here up until now.

Also some much of this could be one sided speculation. NO ONE HERE KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED. No one knows if maybe Jp wazs being an asshole and so joey decided to leave...

EEbrew

09-15-2009, 05:44 PM

Though I can only assume the tool was a jig, and what I was told by someone who knows joey, They watched joey make his own jig...

To come to conclusions after only hearing one side is extremely foolish, that would be like believing 100% everything the US government says.

Back Stabbath

09-15-2009, 05:54 PM

eebrew...

none of my friends and family have to post here to be legit. we are talking about relationships that strech back 20 years or so in some cases...

EEbrew

09-15-2009, 06:03 PM

That may be the case, Though I find it highly distressful that people would come to their conclusions after only hearing on side of the story. In court you don't just hear the plaintiff's story and then make a verdict...

Bubbleman

09-15-2009, 06:03 PM

my only comment on that eebrew would be that if you had the sketch book ... you would have no problem making that tool.....

the sketch book is a fairly big issue... would be nice to hear joey's side though

i agree both sides are essential.. so far we have toro's side.. and about 50 members sides lol

would be great to hear from Joey.

peace
Bubble man

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 06:18 PM

" that would be like believing 100% everything the US government says."

Hahaha thats the most foolish statement Ive heard on these boards.
The US government has a history of lying to the public(and still does to this day and will continue to forever until certain laws and public policies change).
JP and Toro have ZERO history of lying. This Joey character has been told to come forward and give his side of the story, he hasnt and it appears he has no intentions to. If that isnt a sign of guilt, I dont know what is.
JP and Toro are HIGHLY respected members of this community(as its been pointed out many times), why should we not believe them?

EEbrew

09-15-2009, 06:24 PM

How can you come to a conclusion after hearing one fucking side? I'm not taking any side. I want to hear what joey has to say before i make my decision.

Though JP owns a business and has an interest in selling you a product. you should take his word with a grain or three of salt.

From what I was told Joey is currently moving and hasn't had internet access, he might not even be aware that this whole fiasco is happening.

In court you don't just hear the plaintiff's story and then make a verdict...

fallen4ngel

09-15-2009, 06:31 PM

From what I was told Joey is currently moving and hasn't had internet access, he might not even be aware that this whole fiasco is happening.

well i'm sure someone told him.... if not ODM should for sure. its not like this isn't all over this and TC's boards. i too would like to hear both sides... but i doubt there will be anyways to prove he has the book....that would be easy to hide unless unless could not have the knowledge he has to make the tools and other stuff with out it(meaning he didn't learn from JP or figure it out himself). not having internet sucks.... but there are smart phones, libraries, cyber cafe's. i hope this gets resolved soon tho and i feel for the parties involved.

Back Stabbath

09-15-2009, 06:31 PM

in court the defendant shows up to defend themselves....and not 6 months later.

it has been stated here and several other forums that joey has made absolutely no attempt to try to clear his name. this may all be new to you but its not to those involved or in the know.

so chill out with that 1 side story crap becuase he has had every oppertunity including right now to come out and give his side. please show me where he has chosen to do so.

EEbrew

09-15-2009, 06:34 PM

true but still people need to hear both sides.

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 06:39 PM

But the huge, bold words were getting us so far. :rollseyes:

dirtmcgirt

09-15-2009, 06:42 PM

I can't imagine any valid reason for leaving with tools and other trade secret property that belong to the man that took you in and taught you most of what you know. But it would be nice to hear a reason.

Bubbleman

09-15-2009, 06:47 PM

absolutely eebrew...

just waiting to hear from him

Bubbleman

ps... and the whole court reference.... not super good metaphor.. court is definitly NOT justice... its court... if ya pay the most.. you win...

my two cents again

TheNew

09-15-2009, 06:50 PM

in court the defendant shows up to defend themselves....and not 6 months later.

...and in court the defendant is given a scheduled time to show up, the prosecutor doesn't just post up on a cannabis forum. it's been stated that joe doesn't have computer access right now. horrible analogy.

my question: if JP actually believes things were stolen, why isn't he going through lawyers? seems like that would be more effective at solving his problem than stirring up a bunch of rumors.

NYCtoker420

09-15-2009, 06:55 PM

isnt there a patentt for all jp work and ideas or somthing in the lines of that just wondering ?
but from everything i have heard and read about joey should really start saying somthing real soon before everyone thinks and doesnt hear his side of the story which we all should including jp himself im not backing anyone up on this just like eebrew said i just wanna hear the full story and would like to just really throw ITZA under the table for this shit which look who really steals people ideas come on besides people that dont know how to come up with there own things sad yes but life yes also

TheNew

09-15-2009, 07:13 PM

isnt there a patentt for all jp work and ideas or somthing in the lines of that just wondering ?

Not at all. Not for tube design at least.

Hieronymus Bosch

09-15-2009, 07:27 PM

I have a feeling this is going to be the the Israel/Palestine conflict of the glass world. Not in detail...

...but because it will never be resolved.

follow1yourpath

09-15-2009, 07:31 PM

Still seems sketchy too me... With Joe just dip setting on homie JP like that when as stated I felt like JP said they were boys.. Or no, he even went as far as too say a part of his family. If you don't mind me asking, What was up with all the shady bussiness of joe's departure then? The way JP described it was very shady with Joe staying out of reach and contact.

Just my thoughts and ideas and wonderings.. I did not mean to harm, or offend anyone else's opionions thoughts or ideas in this whole fiasco. Good luck too JP on getting things straightend out. And good looking out Dread on finally getting some spoken word from Joey.

yawbus

09-15-2009, 07:38 PM

JP should have realized he is in business. The point of that is to make money. I understand he probably likes doing for the art and yada yada yada but he stated that Joe was about to sign a no compete agreement before he left. Common sense would be to have him sign it before he knows all your trade mark secrets. We all know this world is full of people that will do anything for an edge. This whole situation could have been avoided imo. Joe said JP wasnt treating him right so maybe karma's a bitch. We will never know the whole story so it's dumb to act like we do (Chi-Town).

As of now if anyone has any Itza tubes they want to sell for cheap since Itza is no comparable to china glass, please pm me.

cheesebox

09-15-2009, 07:43 PM

Anyone else notice all this "joey isnt posting anything up" HE NEVER POSTED ANYTHING ONLINE... EVER shit give the man a break, maybe he doesnt like/use/live-off the internet. Im glad to hear that he didn't steal anything, that really didnt sit well with me but everything else sounds like a employer-employee issue that SHOULDNT be aired to the fucking world. If what joey says is true and nothing was ever stolen I am disgusted that this ever came up. What a way to tarnish someones name. I am SURE Jp is an awesome teacher, other toros and itzas just wouldnt be so good, BUT maybe he was a poor employer unfair pay/workload etc. so before you go impaling yourself on someones cock screaming their name and that they dont do no wrong, FACT CHECK!!!!!!!!!! At this point in time I don't know who to believe, but the fact that this is a public denouncement really makes me worried. so wak I hope to god something got stolen, otherwise Im calling this libel and defamation and thats some BullSHIT. If something is stolen lets call it theft, and put a thief behind bars, Im sure he ti signed his rigs, lathes whatever was stolen. all I seek is the truth not some one-sided post that everyone goes screaming off and you-tubing about. I also think that joey/toro should talk and work it out like men, theirs MORE then enough business for both of you, so if no theft actually happend, maybe you can all just get along?

stickyfingers

09-15-2009, 07:50 PM

Chi_Town I am not sure why you care so much or why you hopped on the band wagon so fast but I think you need to calm the fuck down and take a toke before you start hacking at your keyboard like a moron. You have done nothing but fuel this negatively and point fingers when you have'nt heard both sides of the story, and who the hell values the opinion of a BHO fan on these forums anyways.

Frosty

09-15-2009, 07:56 PM

So many fucking fanboy rants and walls of text.

I'd like to see both sides to be honest.
Itza's slim/minimalist style was very refreshing to look at.
Toro's work is just legendary in functionality and style.

Hope to see this worked out between you two.

yawbus

09-15-2009, 08:03 PM

snowboarder3

09-15-2009, 08:20 PM

I'm surprised this thread remained open for so long.

EEbrew

09-15-2009, 08:24 PM

Hardly anyone knows JP on a personnel level. He may be an awesome guy to be friend with an enjoy a beer with but he may not be a great guy to work for. who knows? no one knows. Though the relentless bashing of one forum by another just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 08:28 PM

Yawbus, its cool man, everything is gonna be alright. Remember, this is the internet and a cannabis forum. Stealing is one thing, taking opinions personal, well thats just retarded.

I wish I had time to take everybodys opinions so personal though.

DCALLSTARR

09-15-2009, 08:51 PM

Chi if you really want to continue this bring it in a private message or chat.. im sure you heard it all, but everyone uses everyones designs when producing glass for us heads.

Every inline is based off Hop's original.. and how many people make inlines today? the list goes on and on and on..

Toro took illadelphs "circulator" or by its original name "donut perc" and basically just used it in a different part of the tube with a larger upstem for less drag.. but the design of it is the bell or donut shaped slitted perc that illadelph designed first..

EHLE is an almost exact CHEAPER replica of roor, down to their pierced hole diffy's and pillbottle a/c's..

do i need to go on anymore about how everyone copies everyone and this is really no different at all.

all this is doing is making sure the itza 8/8 dub bub that i pick up is going to cost me a WHOLE lot less then it would have a month ago, because everyone is tarnishing his newly founded reputation.

yawbus

09-15-2009, 09:00 PM

all this is doing is making sure the itza 8/8 dub bub that i pick up is going to cost me a WHOLE lot less then it would have a month ago, because everyone is tarnishing his newly founded reputation.

QFT :mooning:

WAK

09-15-2009, 09:04 PM

/////////////

We have gone out of our way to give props when props are due--

as for the circulator, JP does not go on the internet much--when he does, it's to look at his own work--when JP made his first circulator, when he showed me, I said to him, that's awesome, but I feel like I saw that somewhere before-I went and searched the internet and went so far as to call Madcity to ask him if he'd seen it and who did it--he can vouche for me on this--I did find illys thread eventually, but in the end consciously chose not to say anything since JP had absolutely no influence from illadelph when he made it since he had no idea that illadelph had done them, but was more thinking of PHx's dome perc with a tweak--

sometimes there are flukes where artists are thinking of the same thing at the same time-

--Luca and Illadelph get nothing but respect from us--we got the priviledge of meeting him in Vegas at a private dinner, turns out that he and JP went to the same high school, along with Snic--JP was just a little older--Illadelph is one of the few companies out there that has publically given props to JP, something we never forget! Just last week, I was contacted by them about where we got something that they liked which we use on our tubes, and without hesitation, I gave this information freely--

there are so many that think they "Know" what's up, but it is all just assumption--

Do you all really know how other artists feel when their work is being copied everywhere?
I talk to and am friends with many great artists out there, everyone has there own way of dealing with it--some go into major depressions over this stuff--their wives/girlfiends and I often talk about how we need a support group to handle our men when they get ripped off--just yesterday, I heard one artist's response to "imitation is the greatest form of flattery", by responding,"well then I'm getting the shit flattered out of me everywhere I look!"

did you all know that before we started to produce trees and even put our own tweek on them that I contacted Mike from Dememtia to ask his permission? His reply was, go for it because they too check out JP's work for inspiration and have nothing but respect--

I have open relationships with a lot of my competition--even started talking to Richard himself--that is how true and honest business people can do it and hopefully the riff raff will learn from us strong leaders and now old schoolers that this is really how it should be done--

I also invite Itza Joe to give his side of the story--obviously there are two sides to every story, this is just my truth though--I know that a few days ago, before all of this, the bubbleman himself asked what his story was, but even 4 days later there was no response--

Much respect,
Wendy

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 09:08 PM

No he didnt miss all that, he just chooses to ignore that because it completely kills any argument he has.

But shit, imagine ordering a sick piece from a new company only to find out that the company is now hated by everyone because a thief started it! Its instinct to defend em I suppose.

thekingCREOLE

09-15-2009, 09:42 PM

This is absolutely insane and childish. If your tools were stolen then do the right thing and GO to the LAW ENFORCEMENT. Joe leaving for good without letting JP or WAK know may be disrespectful but completely negligible.

Just because JOE at ITZA Glass is using the skill's and techniques he learned under JP's apprenticeship is no reason to get heart broken.

For whichever reason unknown to us JOE decided to start his own glass blowing company, did you expect him to forget everything you taught him and go in other ways? Obviously he's built on your idea's and IMO is crafting high quality glass than TORO at a fraction of the cost.

Like you said your an artist with an ego, get over it, or patent all your ideas so you can keep it.

As well it seems you are out to ruin his name for improving on techniques you taught him, no thats even more disrespectful then him "copying" your ideas.

follow1yourpath

09-15-2009, 09:46 PM

[QUOTE=
As well it seems you are out to ruin his name for improving on techniques you taught him, no thats even more disrespectful then him "copying" your ideas.[/QUOTE]

Not nessicarily, Just joe dipping out on him all shady like is not very bussiness like.

Again, Just my thoughts and wonderings.

thekingCREOLE

09-15-2009, 09:56 PM

Not nessicarily, Just joe dipping out on him all shady like is not very bussiness like.

Again, Just my thoughts and wonderings.

From what I formed they were never in "business" together, JOE was JP's apprentice. Dipping out on him was disrespectful, but has nothing to do with business. This is why this PERSONAL matter shouldn't be all over these numerous Glass Forums.

dosman

09-15-2009, 10:08 PM

Hmm this is really shedding some light on the situation. No one wants to work for a bad boss

chilidog332001

09-15-2009, 10:24 PM

It hasn't even been 24 hours since this thread posted, and everyone says "why hasn't joe responded yet??!11"

Maybe he doesn't live on the internet? Patience is a virture.

Five To One

09-15-2009, 10:42 PM

hmmmmmm.........

After Joey left my shop, handmade specialized tools (that took me a lot of thought to come up with) and my sketch book were missing

The only part that I care to answer to is that of course he made more tools--he was there looking over my shoulder when I first created them

WAK

09-15-2009, 10:44 PM

Please don't misconstrue my words---there is still my missing prototype jig

Glassaholic

09-15-2009, 10:46 PM

If nothing was physically stolen (you can't steal what you've been taught, that's bullshit) then JP's just being an egotist with his nose out of joint who's trying to use his rep to destroy a competitor/former employee, if that's truly the case then shame on you JP.

WAK

09-15-2009, 10:49 PM

////////////////

Please don't misconstrue my words---there is still my missing prototype jig

per

09-15-2009, 10:56 PM

a long time ago someone desided they wanted to try something new, so they desided they could own something, and that noone ells had the right to own what they made, unless they where given permission....................... and we have had problems ever since =))

how come people think, that in a world, where there are others, they can make something , and claim noone ells has the right to make it, or make it without crediting the "inventor" =)) ?

if people wanna play that game, they should be able to provide a complete world history, from since humans first set foot on the planet, cos who can say for sure it has not all been "invented" before, 4 times and those 4 different civilizations have gone down, cos people choose living with ownership as something "natural"=))

you are best of realizing you are a tool, in a universe full of other tools, that are creating all sort of stuff, and variations of it, be "proud" of being part of it, instead of feeling cheated of something =))

take a look at nature, it gives stuff away and asks nothing again, so the system we humans have set up for our selves, is so messed up, its far from natural, and that is why we have all these "strange " problems =))

hope it helps people solve their "problems", but its all about you opening the door your self, others can only show you the way to go, you have to do the stepping =))

im saying all this cos i find its easier to view life like that, then run around being sad all day long about something, that you cant avoid anywyas, to me its like hammering ones head into a wall and asking why do i hurt and then keep doing it, meaning we keep walking into situations we dont want cos we view the situation so it becomes a problem for us =))

loads of love and hugs =))

per =))

bubba

09-15-2009, 11:00 PM

god dman right jp

Chi-Town

09-15-2009, 11:04 PM

Dont ya love the certain people ignoring those pesky facts(ie, tools and a sketchbook were stolen).

DaNK

09-15-2009, 11:20 PM

Humans are a fierce species. They see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and listen to whatever they want to listen too. I am quit sure JP didnt come on these forums and expect no criticism. Everyone on here has expectations out of life. I am sure not many go through life without them. I realize that some people are actually useless on this planet, but most of all of us all have an opinion. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. In closing, I am sure JP's pride and sense of being were hurt in all of this. This is not just about an apprentice.

Hope it all works out JP!!

TheNew

09-15-2009, 11:24 PM

Dont ya love the certain people ignoring those pesky facts(ie, tools and a sketchbook were stolen).
Or the fact that toro said things were stolen and then decided that no, they weren't stolen. lmao, the only facts are that toro is accusing joe of something and none of us know what the truth is.

edit: why is this trash thread a sticky? let it die when it dies, it's got enough attention to be up top while it matters. don't hang it on the sticky cross forever:(

Basack

09-15-2009, 11:32 PM

I dont see much resemblense in itzas work and your work. Besides the bubs... Thats the only thing. Everything else is to general (fixed 8s) to be copying. And why do you wait til now to tell us?..Having problems with him...

bubba

09-15-2009, 11:44 PM

ToRo Head

09-15-2009, 11:54 PM

O and I see headyglass is about to put Itza up online for sale.

I just emailed them and told them what I thought about that and I encourage everyone to do the same. Supporting the theives is not any better than being one yourself. And if you support the ones who support the theives, youre not much better.
I will no longer support headyglass either until they take down the Itza.

O and ^ theyre as good as china glass because like china glass, they are deceiving bastards. I dont like deceitfulness, its the cousin of stealing. And like I said, I despise those who steal, and I love the glass game(I dont have a high end tube? ahahaha is that why I got the rarest production RooR ever posted up in the glass market for sale ?)

Taking others ideas is fine with me, stealing others tools and notebook after they were treating you like family is not cool and not right.

JP told us the situation so that we would know, we all have the right to say fuck Itza!!

"is that why I got the rarest production RooR ever posted up in the glass market for sale!"

i remember reading this by a member who got banned like 2 weeks ago!

thats it zoger or something close to that or glass enthusiast!

ToRo Head

09-16-2009, 12:04 AM

I want to hear what joe has to say about this! but at the end of the day if he is being accused of what he did their has to be some truth to it!

and as of the competition part lets get serious hear! Toro would not be going after itza if that was the case. it would be SG! cause the only company out their in the usa that can honestly say is competiion to toro toobs is sg plain and simple! so im pretty sure thats def not the case!

phx36

09-16-2009, 12:15 AM

The man runs a fucking shop. Chill the hell out.

Basack

09-16-2009, 12:43 AM

first off alot of you misse dthe pint i think..

its not the tubes that made anyoen mad its the blatant kncokoffs and stelaing of tools and the designs jp made himself...

as far as hops gettign props hes gotten mor eprops on inlines than any glassblower ive ever scene thats come up with sometihng...(though deserved)

my two scents is h2h will nevewr carry itza

Its not the tube but its the designs??? :confused: The tubes dont look the same? So how could they be the same design? THe only thing they make is a fixed 8 in tubes (not including bubs obviously). And toro doesnt even make many fixed 8's and when they do they look nothing like itzas. Im just saying, i talked to joe before and he told me about learning how to do fixed downstems from jp. But idk where the proof is of "stealing" something that belonged to you jp...

cheesebox

09-16-2009, 12:59 AM

Did you miss all their sickness? ofcourse Toro is reasonably aware of itza as a STRONG competitor, the product is damn fine. If some nozzle didnt delete the itza thread, I can probably show you a post where your licking their sac on some piece or another. though SG is blowing up right now its true.

I want to hear what joe has to say about this! but at the end of the day if he is being accused of what he did their has to be some truth to it!

and as of the competition part lets get serious hear! Toro would not be going after itza if that was the case. it would be SG! cause the only company out their in the usa that can honestly say is competiion to toro toobs is sg plain and simple! so im pretty sure thats def not the case!

ToRo Head

09-16-2009, 01:10 AM

Did you miss all their sickness? ofcourse Toro is reasonably aware of itza as a STRONG competitor, the product is damn fine. If some nozzle didnt delete the itza thread, I can probably show you a post where your licking their sac on some piece or another. though SG is blowing up right now its true.

Ive never been a itza fan! the only post u would see me about itza would be telling a member/friend nice pickup out of respect.

And i dont see itza being a strong compeititor to toro sorry! if u said sg then ok but honestly i dont even think half the people on this site knew of itza till this thread was posted. ive been into glass for 7 years and i didnt know who or what itza was till i joined fmb.

cheesebox

09-16-2009, 01:26 AM

Itzas a new company thats why you havent heard of them :-/ I really dont like what ive been hearing in this thread and the other. WAK please give us a confirmation, was their stuff stolen, that you can prove joey stole? Otherwise I suggest editing your thread, as that is Libel or the written form of defamation, Quite a serious offense in NY state. I only own one itza piece, and still LOVE toro but I really feel as if this thread is very very poor. It is wrong on so many level's the only good that can possibly come of this is if JP and Joey finally settle their shit, but I doubt that will happen, as this is an obvious shot at his business and an attempt to destroy another glass blowers rep and target consumer.

killawarcloud420

09-16-2009, 01:29 AM

the designs and tubes might not look exactly the same because you can obviously tell how crappy itza is in comparison. i held theitza bub fixed 8 with 8 arm on top a month ago at ny gifts, shit was weak as hell. My toro was built to such a higher quality of standard. maybe thats why itza doesn't resemble toro to the itza fans. i think almost everybody will agree its a way lesser quailty knockoff/p.o.s. but it does have resemblance. no body else makes fixed 7,8,9,13 or 17 arm tubes besides toro and now itza, and besides syn lol.(obviosuly sg's are way more orginal(4 arms/gridded/reinforced arms)) and the bubblers i mean come on.and the a/cs lolol. TORO KILLS IT. dont let them get to you JP/Wendy. Just put out that newfire!!!!!!